Interview with Kristin Tillquist | Sound Authors Radio

February 10, 2009 | Leave a Comment

Dr. Kent: Welcome back to Sound Authors! My next guest on the show is Kristen Tillquist. She has a book called Capitalizing on Kindness: Why 21st Century Professionals need to be nice. What a great, timely book for this transition in government and for this economic time. as I said earlier in the show, every time I leave my house here in new York, I feel like I’m in a war zone because traffic is so crazy and I think people just are having difficult times maybe at home, maybe in their professional lives and they’re just not nice. Welcome to the show Kristin Tillquist.

Kristin Tillquist: Thank you, I’m glad to be here and I’m glad you mentioned some of your own experience and that’s really a symptom of the 21st century in so many ways as far as being in many ways crime and some of the common courtesies that make the world go around in a more pleasant way.

Dr. Kent: But I have heard in business things have started to change towards what people call a more female way of managing things. A lot more pleasantries, a lot less big heads, hard heads. Talk about the business world today.

Kristin Tillquist: Well the business world is really what the book Capitalizing on Kindness is all about but the point about everyday world it seems that people are actually finding a decline in courtesy and kind of common every kindnesses over the last five years. People are finding that it seems to them people are less kind but in the business world I think you bring up a good point that in some ways kindness is infiltrating the business world but we have a long, long way to go and one of the reasons I put this together and really brought a lot of research into it and a lot of case studies and examples is that I think as professionals in the 21st century right now, we’re really missing a tremendous opportunity in business to give and receive the benefits of kindness.

In giving kindness in business world through communicating better, through building a caring reputations, you’re using thanks a lot, using a lot of different appreciation that leads to a positive personality. These sorts of things make a business more kinder and gentler but the flip side of that which is a little known fact in some cases is that it also makes the business world a more profitable place. So what I want to do in this book and in talking people all across the country and then around the world is to let people know the nice guys can come out of the closet and truly be successful in the business world, especially in this down economy.

Dr. Kent: How did you get into the process of writing? Have you been a writer for a long time?

Kristin Tillquist: I’m actually an attorney by trade. I used to practice law and I got into litigation early on in my practice so I was always in court and always in situations that were by necessity adversarial and I found that pretty unsatisfying in the sense that I knew there was a better way of doing things. What I started to observe, even in the practice of law, was people think you have to be cutthroat in the practice of law; you have to be very competitive, which is true in some ways.

But in many ways what I found is when the attorneys and their clients were conscious of being respectful of getting to the bottom of what was really at stake, what the people on either side really needed, wanted; often it was something as simple as respect and recognition. So when people that practice law can recognize that and be kind to each other, we often get better results from their clients and there’s also research that backs that up and shows that the judges and juries are more likely to award more money to clients that are nice, that are positive, and also that are actually likely to award less money to people that don’t behave in that manner.

So that’s partially where I got into the interest of why kindness is both so essential in business but also how it works and why it really greases the wheels of commerce especially in the global world. Then I ended up working as the chief of staff for the Mayor of the City of Riverside in California, which is the fastest growing county region in the United States. I see a lot of the political side of things and again there’s good and bad in that and there’s lots of ways in which kindness makes things work much better on every front.

Dr. Kent: Well that’s an interesting point; when Barack Obama just got sworn in. He seems like such a nice guy.

Kristin Tillquist: Absolutely and you know that is no question that has played into his enormous success. People were able to identify with him, they simply liked him. I actually mentioned a little bit about his contest with Senator Clinton earlier on and part of it being although she had the higher level of experience without question and played a lot of higher level of connections that were Washington based and so on, he was so likeable and one of the powers that I talk about in the book is the power of positive personality, being someone that’s likeable and people can connect with is so strong and there’s been a lot of analysis done and it looks like that may have been the factor that allowed President Obama to get to where he is. You do like him.

Dr. Kent: Absolutely and now in the workplace from day to day of course you need to sort of kowtow or brown nose to your boss, be nice, give gifts and all of that but beyond that, what does a boss do? What do you do to your fellow colleagues and things like that? How does that play into it, especially in this economic downtime? Why is it so important to be nice?

Kristin Tillquist: Well that’s an excellent question, especially with the economy. How does this work? But I definitely want to make sure that we’re not looking at kowtowing or brown nosing because it’s absolutely the opposite approach that I take in the book. A colleague of mine has a good way of putting it and she says don’t ever mistake my niceness for weakness. This is not about rolling over and always being the one who does all the extra work or taking the bad jobs or doing the dirty work. It’s actually not that, it’s the antithesis really. Its about how to put forward your own goals and objectives as a professional in a very strong, savvy, directed sort of manner, but at the same point always looking at the exact same time how you can help other people to achieve their goals and reach their highest potential.

So it means being gentle with someone whose having a day that means taking down the core of a colleague or a boss and seeing if there’s an abrasive personality for example. What’s really going on behind that? What are they trying to accomplish? What insecurities are they dealing with? And then figure out a way to help them achieve their goals. Its simple things like writing a reference letter for someone who needs it or offering to write that letter before even being asked. It might occasionally be staying late and helping someone with a deadline knowing full and well that you’re giving them a good favor and helping them in that moment and simultaneously you know that favor comes right back to you through incredible good will and opportunities to be assisted yourself in the future. So the power of reciprocity is key ways that professionals succeed.

Dr. Kent: So it boils down to karma?

Kristin Tillquist: No, not karma in the sense of well you know, karma is used in so many ways. I think what it boils down to is a non-religious golden rule. Do unto others as you would have them do unto your loved ones and really treat people the way you would like to be treated and would hope to be treated and really modeling that role. So there is a lot of reciprocity of what goes around comes around and also what you send out in the world just gets magnified. So if you and your colleagues in your workplace or if you’re an independent business person, or even if you’re the CEO of a large corporation, you do set the tone and you do create a ripple effect. I talk a lot about kindness capital and its something, of course we’re talking about human capital and social capital; there’s also something called kindness capital where what you do in terms of simple kindness be it thanking someone, writing that reference letter or whatever the case may be or negotiating in a way that works well for all the parties involved. It creates more kindness and that is simply something we need to have. We need to magnify kindness, we need to create more of it and it does ripple out. There are a variety of sociological and business case studies that show that when someone is kind and does a favor for someone else or a kindness that the people who receive the kindness are just enormously, exponentially more likely to be kind themselves.

Dr. Kent: So if I drive around here in New York, if I drive nicely maybe other people will see that and they’ll be nice to other people?

Kristin Tillquist: Wouldn’t that be nice! In the business world, we’re talking about corporate kindness too. This is again where often times I find that business people need evidence and need to be persuaded because there is that nice guys finish last myth and its really a myth. If you look at all the successful people in corporations and you dig down, they don’t necessarily use the word kindness in their mission statements, which they ought to, and I’m increasingly hoping that they will but they use a lot of different terminology.

If you look at businesses that practice corporate kindness, for example creating a positive employee environment and practices like encouraging their employees to be volunteers and volunteer in their communities and they practice corporate philanthropy. Those companies have 35-45% higher stock values than companies that don’t. so what I did in capitalizing in kindness in the book is put a lot of evidence to help people who might think they understand kindness as a good thing, but to really show them how it actually pays off for the people who receive the kindness and the people that give the kindness.

Dr. Kent: There are times I’ve been labeled as a pure altruist. I’ll end up giving people the shirt off my back, or my most prized possessions. Do personalities come into play? Are certain people just tend to be more altruistic and people want sort of that well why should I be nice, what am I going to get out of it?

Kristin Tillquist: first actually I take issue with the term altruism because as yourself and I’m glad to hear that’s your approach because that means definitely more people like you to do that and to model that behavior but people as an “altruist” you’ve got a wonderful benefit of feeling great don’t you? I mean if you do something nice for someone, say you do give someone the shirt off your back. When you do you get an affect that’s called the helpers high, a documented fact where it’s like running in a race or a marathon.

People actually have endorphin rushes; it gives you a feeling of euphoria and a glow of good will. So the altruist is always getting a benefit so to me a true altruism or pure altruism is a bit of a misnomer. It actually exists but aside from that, I think that personalities play into it somewhat but what I’ve done is people who are naturally like yourself and people who have been modeling themselves for me who are I call them naturally nice. They’re just nice guys and you can tell. You can see it, they’re personable, they’re easy to get along with, they’re just welcoming. But like I said it doesn’t have to be one type of personality, they can also have very strong willed, very intense business people who are truly kind.

But what you can do and what I’ve tried to make really easy in the book is I list at the back of each chapter practice pointers so that people who don’t find themselves even naturally say outgoing or maybe its hard for people to trust them because of a physical appearance they may have or whatever it may be. It gives them practice pointers they can work with in dealing with people in business associations, every day life, personal life, and try and make it really simple to help them hone their approach and make it really easy for people to really warn up to them.

Dr. Kent: So you also deal with I guess the scrooge personality and he was lucky enough to have Marley’s ghost lead him around and then he could change his life. Is there a solution for the kind of grumpy folks at the top who are all about money?

Kristin Tillquist: Well I think for most people they are just not portraying what they’re truly wanting and a lot of people, especially right now with how the economy is so incredibly painful and difficult for people to work with and to get around. It’s just a very difficult situation and it really exacerbates our sense of being vulnerable and our sense of insecurity and that’s what I analyze as being the core of most problems is people who feel insecure. So when people feel insecure both in a personal life, work life, or even globally, it causes people to act badly in so many ways. So oftentimes you see the personality that seems so hard to work with is uncaring is simply unsure.

So it’s not a magic wand that you can just be nice to some really awful person and they’ll change, of course that’s not the case but it does give some insight into certain personalities. What you can do, what’s really key for your boss or the employee, is in the power of connecting, which is one of powers is how to create a sense of a larger purpose. Because people really need to have some reason to be motivated in the world, not just for daily bread and making a paycheck and even now, even when the economy is bad they still want you to be part of something bigger and more important.

So if you can find out if people in business, workplace can specialize and figure out what’s that larger purpose that they are striving towards and even if their just a small cog in that wheel to make sure that people buy into it and really believe in it. I think that’s key and lots of businesses like the Marriott Hotels and Mr. Marriott himself, the founder, is known for doing that when he visits different branches of his Marriott Hotels. He will stop and have lunches with his executives and so on but then he’ll pop into the kitchen and he’ll talk to the staff there. he’ll talk to the people cleaning up the floors and doing whatever needs to be done and not only does he show them a kindness like connecting with them and helping them put a face to a name, they understand that a little bit more what they’re doing there and why making that salad is valuable. He also gets to see what the quality control is so he really is one of those people that knows how to create connections and both sides benefit.

Dr. Kent: Wow! Well it’s a fascinating discussion for many reasons right now and I think the most interesting thing about it is what we said at the very beginning with the new President Obama who seems to be a very nice guy and we all see that by watching CNN. It’s been great chatting with you. The book is called Capitalizing on Kindness: Why 21st century professionals need to be nice, by Kristen Tillquist. Where can we find out more about you?

Kristin Tillquist: You can pop on my website if anyone wants to, its kindnesscapital.com and the book is in bookstores.

Dr. Kent: Wonderful, and of course the book is available, it’s published by Career Press. Thank you so much for chatting with me Kristen.

Kristin Tillquist: Thank you, I enjoyed it.

Dr. Kent: My next guest on the show is a musician. As always we feature a musician in the fourth part of each show. His name is Yosvany Terry and he is known for his innovation performing with legends like Silvia Rodriguez and other incredible young Cuban jazz players. I’m going to play a tune from him and then we’ll talk to him after that.

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Kristin Tillquist | Business Nice

February 7, 2009 | Leave a Comment

Interview with Kristin Tillquist [17:02m]: Play Now | Play in Popup | Download

Intriguing conversation about the benefits of being “nice” in the workplace and elsewhere. More about Kristin Tillquist from her website:

Kristin Tillquist, author, columnist, business entrepreneur, lecturer and inspirational speaker, makes her book debut with, Capitalizing on Kindness: Why 21st Century Professionals Need to Be Nice (The Career Press, November 2008). Kristin takes the stigma out of being “nice” in business and focuses on harnessing the power of kindness to simultaneously enrich society as well as achieve high levels of professional accomplishment.

In Capitalizing on Kindness, Kristin details why being nice in business is actually the smart and strategic way to operate. She draws from examples, scientific and sociological research that supports the theory that creating a positive atmosphere of goodwill in the workplace, building a network of supportive colleagues and employees, and establishing a caring reputation actually translates into plentiful dividends and satisfied customers!

“I learned fairly early on that investing in one’s ‘kindness capital,’ directly translates to one’s success in the workplace,” says Kristin. “The more you do to help others achieve their goals and objectives, the more you will attract them to cooperate on your behalf — and that translates into mutual benefits and financial success.”

For the book, Kristin draws from her rich professional background as a civil litigation attorney (formerly practicing in Vancouver, British Columbia), where she learned many protocol and mediation skills. Her education also propelled her to travel extensively worldwide, living for a time in Eastern Europe as well as Asia, where she learned the fine art of intercultural communication.

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Joel Magnuson | Mindful Economics

December 21, 2008 | Leave a Comment

Interview with Joel Magnuson [19:08m]: Play Now | Play in Popup | Download

I spoke with Joel Magnuson about a different kind of economics than we see in the news. Can things change for the better with a new government in Washington? More information about the book:

Mindful Economics is a valuable resource for anyone who wishes to deepen their understanding of the United States economy. The book breaks away from traditional economic theory and provides a fresh, critical perspective on capitalism in America. The book will be particularly useful for citizens, activists, students or others who seek positive social change. The first several chapters guide the readers through an exploration of real-world institutions such as corporations, government, market systems, financial and other institutions that make up the U.S. economy. These chapters provide much information about the histories of these institutions, as well as how they have evolved to serve the profit-making and growth imperatives of capitalism. Embedded in these stories is the consistent theme that the need to maximize profits for a relatively small section of the U.S. population has shaped the development of America’s most powerful institutions.

The second part of the book demonstrates how the need for higher profits and endless growth has intensified environmental destruction, resource depletion, instability, social and political inequality, and even global warming. These problems have become systemic and solutions therefore require long-term systemic change.

The path toward systemic change is laid out in the third part of Mindful Economics. Such change can be brought about by developing alternative institutions. As these alternatives evolve and grow, they will place the U.S. economy on a path to a new system. Systemic change will come about gradually by the will of people who purposefully steer the development of the economic institutions in their communities in a positive and healthy direction. To this end Mindful Economics lays a foundation for building new alternatives that are democratic, locally-based and ecologically sustainable. Such alternatives are not only viable, they can be found all across the United States. Through a network of alternative institutions, people can begin to build alternatives to capitalism and provide hope for future generations.

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Warren Whitlock | Twitter Guru

December 15, 2008 | Leave a Comment

Interview with Warren Whitlock [14:14m]: Play Now | Play in Popup | Download

It was a great pleasure to speak with book publicity legend Warren Whitlock about his newest book and project “Twitter Revolution.” The world is all a’twitter about it… More about Warren Whitlock from his website:

Warren Whitlock is the Marketing Results Coach. His mission is to help authors and businesses improve the results of their marketing programs.

Warren is a #1 best selling author, publisher, and editor of dailywarren.com, an online web log (blog) focused on book marketing.

Warren is an entrepreneur in the computer and imaging industries, several offline businesses and Internet properties. He started his career in broadcast advertising, developing cross promotions between two or more businesses, and has used the same strategies in direct mail and other media.

Over the past decade, Warren has taught thousands of small businesses, authors and individuals how to use proven direct marketing principles to promote product or service, started a trade association for manufacturers in the imaging products industry and served on several executive boards.

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Interview with Leonard Berry | Sound Authors Radio

December 14, 2008 | Leave a Comment

Dr. Kent: My next guest on the show has written a book called Management Lessons from Mayo Clinic: Inside one of the world’s most admired service organizations. Leonard L. Berry is a professor of marketing and many other things and has written this book with Kent Seltman, a fellow that was in charge of Mayo Clinic for quite some time. Welcome to the show Leonard.

Leonard Berry: Thank you it’s good to be on the show.

Dr. Kent: Tell me a little about what kind of lessons can we learn about management from Mayo Clinic?

Leonard Berry: Well I think the most important lesson Dr. Kent is that Mayo Clinic illustrates the power of truly putting the customers needs first. It shouldn’t take a healthcare institution to teach this important lesson the business but in fact Mayo clinic is a great example of what can happen, the wonderful things that can happen if you truly build your service model around the needs of the customer, in this case the needs of the patient.

Dr. Kent: I remember so many images of Mayo Clinic; one of them the King of Jordan in his last days stepping out of the Mayo Clinic. My own grandmother had a lot of work done there. Its such an amazing institution that it touches just about all of our lives.

Leonard Berry: It is one of Americas, perhaps one of the worlds, most unique institutions. Its 140 years old, it started as a family medical practice in the middle of nowhere, Rochester Minnesota and here it is today, the premier medical institution in the world. It certainly has the leading medical brand, the most recognized medical brand in the world. It’s really quite amazing. Its not only a remarkable healthcare institution Dr. Kent, it’s a remarkable service institution and that’s why we wrote this book. We felt there were important messages for managers in many instances, not just healthcare.

Dr. Kent: How did you come to write a book about the Mayo Clinic?

Leonard Berry: It all started with a sabbatical leave that I took in 2001-2002. I’m as you mentioned a marketing professor at Texas A&M University and it was time for my sabbatical. I had focused my research and teaching for my entire career on service organizations and service marketing, service quality, service management and my time for the sabbatical was coming and I wanted to do something really special.

A sabbatical is such a great opportunity for academics and I realized here I had spent my whole life studying service but I hadn’t really studied healthcare service, which is our most important service of them all. So I approached the Mayo Clinic, asked if I could study service there, they said yes and I went there and spent my sabbatical year there and got hooked on healthcare. I was fascinated with the Mayo Clinic, its just such an amazing institution.

Dr. Kent: How did that change? You’ve been teaching for a long time; how did that if in any way change the way you teach service and teach marketing management?

Leonard Berry: Great question; the experience had a profound impact on me both professionally and personally. Professionally it redirected my research from the corporate sector where I had devoted my career to healthcare service. Because what I started to learn as I poked my head into healthcare is we have a broken healthcare system in this country and people with my kind of background studying service quality, studying business, need to be part of the debate about the future. I just felt that I could make a contribution to improving our healthcare systems efficiency and effectiveness. So a very important impact on me professionally.

I joined the faculty from medical school in addition to my full time faculty appointment in the business school and so for the last four years I’ve been teaching medical students about service quality in addition to my MBA students in the business school and I’ve been doing a lot of research and publishing in the medical field. Personally, it just has changed my perspective on so many things including the fact that had I to do it over again; I think I might have gone to medical school.

It’s a little late in my career but I was so fascinated, so interested, and when I worked at the Mayo Clinic I spent a lot of time with the patients and their families and a lot of time in the examination room watching the doctor and patients interactions a lot of time in the hospital just visiting with patients and their families and going on hospital rounds. I love what I do, I’m glad I’m a professor, I think I would’ve liked being a doctor too.

Dr. Kent: I’m intrigued so pardon my asking but in my father is also a physician and he’s always talking about the way the world is for people out there and how difficult the insurance situation is and all of that. What’s your take on medicine and healthcare politically?

Leonard Berry: My take is that our healthcare system is broken, our healthcare system is unsustainable, our healthcare system I think is ready to implode and at the root of the problems, and there are a lot of issues, a lot of challenges, but at the root is the fact that 47 million, and new research just came out so maybe its 46 million right now, Americans are uninsured for healthcare. Many more millions are under-insured, which means they have insurance but it isn’t adequate if they truly get ill and we cannot fix healthcare in America until we address that problem. That’s why it is a major issue in this political campaign because we are at the tipping point. We need to address this problem, even though it’s politically difficult. Whoever wins this election, whatever the outcome, we will address it in this country in the next five years, we have no choice.

Dr. Kent: What I find fascinating also is that you’re in the business arena and you’ve spent most of your career there in management. A lot of business folks are lets say politically conservative whereas now where you’ve come to and gone into the service industry of medicine and you’re talking about the possibilities of healthcare for more people, that’s thought of as kind of a liberal position. What kind of discussions do you have with your business colleagues?

Leonard Berry: Spirited discussions, but I serve on several corporate boards. I spend a lot of time with high level business executives from all sectors of our economy. We talk a lot about healthcare and in fact several of my board affiliations are with healthcare institutions. We talk a lot about the future of healthcare and no one disagrees with me when I make the comment I just made to you and your audience that our healthcare is just broken. I mean no one disagrees. No one disagrees that our current system is unsustainable, that we cannot continue to pay for the mediocre healthcare results that we get in America. We cannot continue to afford all of the waste that we incur in delivering healthcare in America.

I think we’re wasting at least 30 cents on the dollar for every dollar we spend in healthcare in America and we’re spending over two trillion dollars now and that’s a lot of dollars being wasted. That’s my estimate and some of my friends who are very knowledgeable on this issue tell me that I’m being conservative, it’s more than 1/3; we’re wasting more than 1/3. So regardless of political leanings, I think that there is a lot of agreement with the need to totally reframe our approach to healthcare in America for the future.

Dr. Kent: Is there a way for the country or the upcoming president to learn a management lesson from Mayo Clinic?

Leonard Berry: Yes; my co-author and I believe that this is an important book not just for managers to learn from one of the leading organizations in the world about service and how to improve service, because if you can deliver great service to a customer who is sick, who is ill, who is in pain, who is scared, then you can deliver great services to customers who are not ill, who are not in pain, who are not scared. So there’s a lot to learn from mayo clinic in the general business community. But we also think the mayo clinic system is a model for other healthcare systems and for healthcare delivery in general because mayo is very efficient and a variety of studies have shown just how efficient Mayo is compared to other healthcare providers. Efficient in terms of the cost of care over a period of time for one patient.

In other words, when you look at Mayo Clinic as Dartmouth Medical School has, in terms of the amount of care given to people given in the last two years of their lives and all of the doctor visits, tests, procedures that are done, and the cost associated with that, Mayo Clinic is ranked as one of the most cost efficient healthcare institutions in America. In fact it was ranked number 2 in the entire country in a study that came out a couple of months ago. So there’s a lot to learn on the issue that we’re talking about; the issue of waste and the efficiency in the Mayo system and so we think our book is an important book for policy makers in healthcare as well.

Dr. Kent: What’s the most surprising thing you found in your study of Mayo Clinic?

Leonard Berry: I like that question because there were some surprises. The biggest surprise is that in business school we teach that companies need to continually change their strategies because the market continually changes. And because the market continually changes, companies need to be quite dynamic in what they do for the market. Here’s Mayo Clinic this century plus old institution and it has the same basic strategy that it had 100 years ago and that strategy is integrated multi-specialty healthcare.

In other words, basically providing a department store of medical specialists and these specialists work together to help the individual patient. Regardless of the individual patient’s illness, there are specialists who come together as a team and help that individual patient and that’s the same strategy, its never changed in a century. I don’t think it’s going to change in the next century for Mayo Clinic so what we teach in the business school that companies need to keep changing their strategies as the market shifts isn’t the case at Mayo Clinic. They have 100 year old strategy that doesn’t need changing and I teach that.

You asked me what I teach differently to my students. I teach now that sometimes a strategy can be so right, it can be so correct, it can be so dead on that it doesn’t need to be changed. That’s something I didn’t teach before I started at Mayo Clinic.

Dr. Kent: Wow and that’s a life lesson too. Gosh, if you could say there was a right way to govern or a right way to lead our lives, that would be a wonderful lesson for any of us. We can find out about your book on McGraw Hills website, its called management Lessons from Mayo Clinic with the co-author Kent Seltman and you also have several books on service in the past several years discovering the soul of service on great service, the framework for action. Do you have another book in you? Are you thinking about continuing on?

Leonard Berry: Yes, probably so but right now our book management for mayo clinic just came out in June so it’s a new book and we’re very involved in traveling and participating in interviews and doing the things that authors and their books do to promote their book and create awareness for it. So that’s taking a great deal of my time right now, but never say never. You have to be ready to write a book at least that’s the way I feel. It turns your life upside down. Every book that I’ve written has taken me two years in terms of all the research and fieldwork and planning and the writing.

Then the editing and revising and proofreading and everything else, it’s always a two year thing even when it’s supposed to be less. So it’s a huge commitment and so you have to be ready and you have to have a good idea. There’s a lot of mediocre books being written because they’re really not needed. They really don’t address a problem that hasn’t already been addressed by many other books. There’s nothing new or novel or fresh about them and so in my case do I have another book in me? I hope so, I think so but not until I have an important problem to address and something fresh to contribute to that problem.

Dr. Kent: Well it’s been a real honor speaking with Leonard Berry about his book he wrote with Kent Seltman, it’s called Management Lessons from Mayo Clinic: Inside one of the world’s most admired service organizations. Fascinating discussion and certainly a fascinating topic for businesses and for us in our lives. Thank you so much for being on the show.

Leonard Berry: Well thank you I enjoyed it and I appreciate it.

Dr. Kent: My next guest is a musician so I’m going to play one of their tracks right now. They are called the Agnostic Mountain Gospel Choir and this song from their new album 10,000 called Dumb it Down. Come on back.

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