Judy Collins Interview on Sound Authors Radio

October 11, 2008

Dr. Kent: …What a song! Send in the Clowns, by Judy Collins. Some say that’s the reason Steven Sondheim won a Grammy in 1975 - based on that song performance on her album, Judith.

Well it’s my real pleasure to welcome a voice and a person who has deeply affected my life. I’m only 30 years old but I grew up to the soundtrack of her voice and her music. That song Send in the Clowns; the song Both Sides Now that my mother sang at my crib side when I was a little boy and you know, Bill Clinton says that they named Chelsea after her recording of that song.

One of the most amazing things is the song Amazing Grace that was played by the bagpipes on 9/11 and at so many funerals around the world. The bagpipe arrangement of Amazing Grace was taken from Judy Collins’ recording of the song way back when.

It’s my honor to welcome Judy Collins to the show.

Judy Collins: Well, thank you so much! Here I am.

Dr. Kent: How are you doing today?

Judy Collins: I’m doing great, thank you.

Dr. Kent: Do you watch a lot of the politics happening?

Judy Collins: (Laughing) I watch some of it.

Dr. Kent: And I know you have some activist past. You’ve done a lot of things including UNICEF and of course since your son’s passing you’ve talked to the world about suicide prevention.

Judy Collins: I have, and I’m very grateful that I have some outlet because I think it was very healing when I lost my son to suicide, which was a shock. And actually it probably shouldn’t have been, but it was.

And I had the opportunity to write not only songs but a book about suicide about the taboo of being a suicide survivor which of course affects the mental health of so many hundreds of thousands of people who are faced with the taboo and the prejudice about suicide survivors; both the religious and social. So it’s another activist format I think. I saw it as that and it’s in my nature to act.

I’ll be voting as many times as possible.

Dr. Kent: You’ve written several books including books before his death; and then, Trust Your Heart, your memoir, but the book that has gotten all of the acclaim lately is another one called Sanity and Grace. And that’s why it’s so fitting that you’re on the show called Sound Authors because you are indeed a SOUND author and a sound AUTHOR. So, tell us about Sanity and Grace; how you supported that book for a few years here and what it felt like writing it?

Judy Collins: Well, it was a great relief to get these thoughts out; very difficult to do but important. And I believe in bringing issues of this kind out into the open. I think that the air somehow allows people to think out loud about things that they used to keep, that most people used to think were dread, dark, terrible secrets. Well, its part of the human experience and as our ideas change and our social milieu changes in which we learn that all kinds of human behavior is important to think about and talk about openly. It seems to be a good time.

When my son died; Clark died in 1992, and there was just not much around. There was the one book written by a woman who became a close friend. I called her and she had lost her son a few years before that. She is and was a therapist in Atlanta and runs an organization called The Lake. So when her 19 year old killed himself it was a terrible blow and she took it to the public in a wonderful, moving book.

Then there was another book, the classic sort of book that is not about solutions which is called The Savage God. I was always afraid to read that book and I think that’s the problem with it. There aren’t any solutions. He talks a lot about the suicides; a couple of famous suicides and his own attempts. But he doesn’t really come down on the side of articulating what some of these issues might have been. The depression, the alcoholism, the drug addiction, the things that we now know a lot more about.

Nowadays, since I wrote Sanity and Grace and published it in 2003 with a company called Tarcher, I’ve done a lot of public speaking.

I’ve done the book signings and the press that comes out when a book is published, but then following that I speak to a lot of mental health organizations, I speak to suicide prevention groups and community groups which focus on mental health and among other things, suicide rates among teenagers. And now if I go to the book store, if you do, you’ll probably find any number of personal stories about survival of suicide and primarily I think the important change is now there is a focus on some of the issues of what we’ll dealing with in the suicide community, suicidal community.

I was myself as a teenager. I made an attempt on my life and all during the years that I was drinking, I was quite often trying to get somebody to put me in the hospital because I felt that I would take my own life. So alcohol and I parted company some 30 years ago and I have not had those thoughts since that time, which shows you something. And I guess we don’t all have to learn from our own devastating experience, sometimes someone else can shed a little light on what’s going on and help us.

Dr. Kent: It is such a tragedy and we’ve all been touched by suicide, it’s a disease we’re all familiar with. Right now, one of the things about the military is I guess the suicide rate is dramatically higher than it’s ever been in the history of conflict. Talk to us about that for a second.

Judy Collins: I was quite astonished to read about a suicide who was buried at Arlington and the mother of the suicide wrote about this in the New York Times. This was last year and she was able to talk about this the suicide publicly, which is absolutely unheard of in the military it was until then. And of course there are mental health issues. Of course there are with any community but particularly with the military community there are a lot of things. You know, the tragedy is that a lot of these people who were in the National Guard and other places had been diagnosed with various kinds of either depression, bipolar; something that requires medication. And a lot of them were diagnosed in the military and they didn’t get their pills.

They didn’t get the medication which had been prescribed for them by their doctors. The military was unable to keep up with the medical history of the soldiers. I mean, well yes the military that can’t protect their soldiers in the line of fire when they have tanks and humvees that have no protection and they wind up killing the people who are supposed to protect us. Maybe it shouldn’t be expected that that military force should be able to reach into a soldier’s medical history and give him the medications that he needs. But it is a disaster; it is a fundamental flaw in taking care of business.

My own personal feeling is that taking care of business is one of the big issues of this particular election. We have not, this administration and this particular watch has not been taken care of on any level. I don’t know about you but I grew up in the time when I had to learn that how to function in business, how to what the bottom line is, what I’m responsible for, how to pay my bills, how to balance my checkbook, how to take care of my needs, how to be my own advocate in a time medically speaking in a time when our healthcare system is in the toilet frankly. And to be ones own advocate and to learn how to take care of the business at hand, that’s a challenge.

I don’t think it started with ENRON and it certainly isn’t going to end with the vote going on in Congress right now. But it’s all part of the same picture. The health, the welfare, the mental health, the needs of people in a community, the taking care of the soldiers who are trying to put their own lives on the line for us. Its all about the same thing; responsibility. And I would like to cast my vote for responsibility.

Dr. Kent: Wow. Amen from the choir. Now I have a question for you about way back when; when you got your beginning in the early 60s, when Greenwich Village was filled with poets and fledgling songwriters. You tagged along with the likes of the best of them including another hero of mine, Doc Watson. What was your experience with some of the early songwriters like Bob Dylan and some of the beautiful singers like Joan Baez, and with some of the I guess roots musicians like Doc Watson, and some of the much older musicians that were coming out of the hills at that time.

Judy Collins: Well I saw a lot of those people at various festivals including Newport, which is coming up on the 50th Anniversary! And I’ve been at many Newport festivals. I got a taste of Mississippi John Hurt and of course met Doc Watson and later on his some whom he worked with. I was privileged to become a friend of Joan Baez very early on and was very, very close to her sister. I saw Joan and her mother and her older sister on three different occasions, three different nights. They live in different places in California and I was in all of them and each night a Baez showed up so that was wonderful.

I also was very happy to see Joan’s recent success; she’s got a hit record. And she also put a song of mine on my new tribute album. I’m coming out with next week with an album of my songs sung by other artists. So there’s a collection of Jimmy Webb, Joan Baez, Leonard Cohen, Dolly Parton, Rufus Wainright; who else? Bernadette Peters; a whole group of singers and performers who are doing my songs, which is a great I don’t know tribute is a wonderful thing to have happen to you. And I got to know Joanie Mitchell in those years and many different people. It was a wonderful time. And of course we were all young and traveling like mad. I had been on the road 50 years; most of the people that I know who are not gone are doing the same thing. And we get to go into the world and do what we love. What a privilege.

Dr. Kent: Dr. Kent: And this album that’s coming out next week is called Born to the Breed?

Judy Collins: Yes it is.

Dr. Kent: A tribute to Judy Collins; and now I’d like to chat for a second about a few of the people on there because for example, the wonderful song Suzanne by Leonard Cohen. You know, that’s one of the songs that haunted me as a child when my mother put your record on. And later on I discovered your song by Leonard Cohen when I was in college many years later and I love both versions. Now talk about meeting Leonard Cohen and being part of his I guess path upwards in the music world.

Judy Collins: It was history, yes. He was introduced to me through a mutual friend of ours who was also Canadian who kept saying, “I want to bring him down here and have him sing his song for you because he’s a poet but he’s written these things he thinks are songs but he doesn’t quite know.” He came to New York and he came to my house in 1966 and he said, “I can’t sing and I can’t play the guitar and I don’t know if this is a song.”

Then he played me Suzanne and I said, “Leonard it is definitely a song and I’m recording it tomorrow.” I started recording his songs immediately; Susanne’s dress rehearsal rag and then added water. Every few months I would get a little tape with a bunch of songs on it so the story of Isaacs, History of Mercy, Bird on the Wire, Joan of Arc, Blue Raincoat; they just kept pouring out of Canada and I recorded them. Then he said to me, “Why aren’t you writing your own songs?” And I had no answer but I did sit down and start to write my own songs. And on this new tribute Leonard Cohen is performing my first song.

Dr. Kent: Oh, isn’t that wonderful! What’s the song called?

Judy Collins: So I think, it’s called Since You’ve Asked.

Dr. Kent: And that is something about you. Now I know your voice like nothing else, I saw you sing in Stonybrook New York a couple years ago I believe. You still have that same voice and it’s such an iconic voice that has obviously gone to the heart of many from politicians to normal folks across the world, including me. I grew up with your voice, but what is the difference for you between being a songwriter and between being a singer?

Judy Collins: Well its part of the same thing. Of course, I’ve studied singing for 32 years with a great teacher so I’ve learned how to do that. And it’s important to learn your skills. I have been writing songs since 1967 so I’m hoping they’ve been getting better. And I have a body of work now that I can look at and say well, its time to write more songs but meantime, what have I been writing? You know, what has my writing process been like? Where is it taking me? I have a lot of investment in writing per se. As you said I’ve written a number of books and I have turned by I guess fate into a memoirs as well as a songwriter and as well as a singer and it is difficult at times juggling those careers because they all on their own merits are individual careers.

However, I’m also a filmmaker and my film about Antonia who is my great teacher, my great piano teacher, was nominated for an Academy Award. So that was another path that I might have taken. I prefer however the balancing of the singing, the writing, the songwriting, the concerts, the touring, the book writing, and if there’s another move in me, I’ll make it somehow.

Dr. Kent: So tell me, another story that I’d love to know about is back in the day, the song Amazing Grace wasn’t really known. And I do know that Doc Watson, Clarence Ashley sang the song in 1961 in Greenwich Village and were you there to hear that? I know there was a buzz around the song. When did you decide to record it because you’re the one that then took that song and made it sort of iconic for this country and for the world?

Judy Collins: I was not aware of my own history with this song or let’s say with my impact with the song or why it changed the nature of people’s relationship with the song. I didn’t, I just didn’t know any of that and that’s where a good historian always comes in handy. Because Steve Turner who has written a number of books about artists; about the Beetles, about John Newton who wrote Amazing Grace. Told in the book of how my recording of which was out in 1970 changed the thinking about the song, brought it back to the hymn books for instance. Put it out there for people to kind of rethink and begin to record again.

It gave the pipers as you pointed out; the pipers in Scotland used my harmonies and so on to put it into the bagpipe repertoire which it had not been, at least for probably a century. And so that was very interesting to learn because I didn’t know it. I had known the song from the age of probably 10 or 12. My grandmother had sung me the song, my grandmother Byrd on my mothers side was a southern nurse from Chattanooga. And she had sung me this song and I had always known it and it came to a point in, I was in an encounter group in 1970 with a whole bunch of people.

And I sang it one night when I was asked if I could please get everybody singing so they wouldn’t tear each others hair out. And it was the next morning that my producer said to me you know, and he was in the encounter group. He said, “Hey, you ought to record that song.” And the rest of it is history.

Dr. Kent: Now and I also have a personal question. I mentioned at the very beginning, this is kind of an amusing story. When I was a small child my mother would sing to me Both Sides Now and she didn’t sing it to me when I got older. So for probably ten or 15 years I had this song running through my head that I didn’t quite know the words, I didn’t quite know what it was until I heard your recording again when I was in college and thought, this is the song! This is the song that’s been in my head for 15 years. And it’s your recording of it that I grew up with. And now it’s a Joanie Mitchell song but again, how did you find her and how did you find this song?

Judy Collins: I got a call in the middle of the night from my old friend Al Cooper who said, “I’ve got this great song and I want to put Joanie on and she’s going to sing it for you and you should record it.” And of course I heard it and I said I’ll be right over. I was bowled over by the song. I’ve always loved her material since then; that was 1967 and the album of that song was called Wildflowers and it came out in 1968 and became not an immediate hit, it took quite a few months for the record company to catch up with the radio stations on it, but it did become a top 10 hit and it is a gorgeous song and I still love singing it.

Dr. Kent: That was going to be my question. Is this, do some of these songs haunt you the way they haunt me?

Judy Collins: Oh yes. And because I have this 50 year at this point, 50 years and counting, almost 50 years now of having a career of singing to make a living, I have a huge, vast repertoire to draw on but I can also pull off. You’ll never hear all of the hits if you go to the stadium because they’ll be scattered over three or four shows and then intertwined will be all kinds of songs that are part of my history as well.

Dr. Kent: Now I want to play one song here and give your voice a break. I’d like to listen to the whole song. I want to listen to Norwegian Wood. Now this is from another recent album of yours. A couple of years ago you put out an album of songs called Judy Collins Sings Lennon and McCartney. How did you? How did you come by that one?

Judy Collins: Well I had done an album of Leonard Collins songs and I’d done an album of Bob Dylan songs. Ones at Guess and one with Rhino because I was using the old versions. I wanted people to hear the historic versions of the recordings I had made of the Leonard Cohen songs. And then I thought well that’s the next in line. Let’s see what Lennon and McCartney did. How they wrote these great songs that are so wonderful. And the only way to learn that is to learn them and to sing them.

Dr. Kent: What I think is kind of funny is that you know my parents are through and through folk music disciples and Rock and Roll ruin folk and in a sense the Beetles sort of embodied rock and roll. What’s your take on that these days?

Judy Collins: They’re just good songwriters who happen to play the guitar and the drums.

Dr. Kent: Absolutely. And the song, Norwegian Wood of course I think is one of the most beautiful songs ever written. Let’s listen to Norwegian Wood from Judy Collins sings Lennon and McCartney.

[song 22:50 to 25:21]

Dr. Kent: What a beautiful version of that song Norwegian Wood.

Judy Collins: Thank you.

Dr. Kent: Now, tell me about, how do you keep your voice sounding like you’re 21?

Judy Collins: I studied with my great teacher for 32 years and I know what to do. It’s really that simple. I do take care of myself, I live life in that I don’t drink, I don’t smoke, I don’t scream or do all those naughty things that we used to do so that helps.

Dr. Kent: And it’s so fascinating. Of course I also love Joan Baez and her music and she’s turned into an Alto lately and she still has that quality but you really have retained that high belle like quality to your voice.

Judy Collins: Well thanks to Max Barleys, that’s what I always say. I mean I was very, very lucky to find a great teacher like the one I did then studied with him through all those years.

Dr. Kent: I would love to talk about the last song I’ll play on this show in a few minutes is a song called Wings of Angels. Of course it’s the song you wrote to your son and I’d like to talk about the book some more.

Judy Collins: Oh good.

Dr. Kent: Because it really is something that I really appreciated your very short political diatribe earlier and the work you’ve done for suicide has been so important. What is your goal? Let’s say in the next decade to do with suicide? Are you out on the road talking about it?

Judy Collins: Oh well I certainly am. I’m writing another book which will include material about this but and I do have I have had anyways for the past few years a rather steady set of programs where I will go to a city and talk about and speak about the issue to a fundraising dinner or place where people gather to talk about these things. So I imagine that the speaking engagements for mental health organizations will continue. I’ll certainly write more about it because I am in that particular phase right now of writing a new book and it will certainly have.

It will cover the material in a different way of course but it certainly will engage in a discussion of body, mind, spirit, spiritual issues regarding suicide and my own views about suicide in a culture and what I think. I don’t know too much about some of the approaches that are used to this situation, but I do know that drugs and alcohol are contributors of suicide ideology and perhaps I know more about that than other things and maybe those things will help people.

Also that meditation, exercise, getting ones self in fit physical, emotional, spiritual shape are I think essential pieces of this puzzle. And perhaps I can be helpful in that regard, but it wont be something that goes away from me because I’ve used that and it has become an issue that I have a lot to say about and will continue I’m sure to be speaking and writing about.

Dr. Kent: Well I just had a fellow named Gary Kinnel on the show.

Judy Collins: Oh yes, I love Solway.

Dr. Kent: And he has a poem that he read on the show called Wait and it was so striking because he talked about a girl who came to his office and said that she was thinking about suicide. And I really think you know so many of us have been touched by people that you know we always watch people. We always say, how is this person doing? And if there’s so much power to just being that voice, saying hey, just wait, it will get better.

Judy Collins: Yeah, it’ll get better; living. You know, life after midnight is very important.

Dr. Kent: Now, when you were a young woman you got thrown into the spotlight really quickly. How does that affect you?

Judy Collins: Well, I was always in the spotlight. My father was a big star in Denver and Seattle and LA. And that, so I was born into that. He was an eccentric, he was blind, he was talented, he was people loved him and adored him. He was troubled as most brilliant people are. I came out of an alcoholic family and was an alcoholic myself it turns out; lucky me.

But I do think that the most important thing that I took away from all of that was a way to work, a discipline, an approach to life that has to do with work. And that probably has always saved me a lot of otherwise dangerous results in certain areas. Because I know a lot of it doesn’t matter anyway. What people say, what the critics say, what the you know trend is, what the trend isn’t, when you’re up, when you’re down, somebody is quoted as saying success and failure are exactly the same. I don’t believe that for a minute but in the way its I think, I think that the saying is success and failure are both imposters. That I believe.

Dr. Kent: Wow. Success and failure are both imposters. It’s a fascinating thing to hear you know from any star I guess in quotes. What its like to go through that mill; now how, in pure curiosity, how about figures like Bob Dylan. What was your take on the young fellow?

Judy Collins: Oh, well I’m just so mad about Dylan that I can hardly stand it. I was in England; you know I was trying new songs. I’ve known him and I’ve recorded a lot of things of his. I’m a fan of Dylan material. I just think he’s a genius. What more can I say? He’s also a helluva good artist and I was in England not too long ago and wound up walking away with six prints of his work. So he’s sold me, I’m a fan.

Dr. Kent: Wonderful! Well…

Judy Collins: Always have been a fan.

Dr. Kent: I’m a fan of yours; unfortunately we didn’t play Suzanne or Both Sides Now or Amazing Grace.

Judy Collins: That’s all right.

Dr. Kent: Wonderful songs; I only have a minute or so left before I can play your song. Tell me about the song Wings of Angels very quickly.

Judy Collins: Well, it was one of the first things that I wrote after my son’s death. I had to retrain myself to go to the piano and to sit down and start trying to deal with my feelings of devastation and it was very hard. Very, very hard to write this song; however, when I sing it I feel very close to him. So that was the whole purpose in writing it and I’m grateful that I was able to do that.

Dr. Kent: Well, it’s been a real honor speaking with Judy Collins. She is the author of Sanity and Grace, which and she’s a champion of suicide prevention. Both she and I will be voting, hopefully for change very soon now. She’s also written other books and of course has a discography as long as the computer screen will roll down. We can find out more about her at her website at www.judycollins.com.

She’s got a new CD coming out in a week called Born to the Breed, a tribute to Judy Collins and I definitely have to get my copy of that. Its got Dar Williams on it, Leonard Cohen, its got Shawn Colvin, and its got the new folks, the old folks; Dolly Parton and others… It’s been such an honor speaking with you, Judy.

Judy Collins: Thank you so much, I had a good time. I appreciate it.

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