Marie Howe Transcript

April 5, 2008

Dr. Kent Gustavson: Welcome to Sound Authors. Today is the 4th of April. On this day in 1968, 40 years ago, Martin Luther King was shot and killed. It’s a sad memory, but it’s been a long 40 years since then. Now we have a black candidate running for president and many things have happened since.Today on the show we’ve got four guests. At the end of the show, Jeff Beal, the famous composer of “Pollock” and “Rome” and some other wonderful music, and three authors, Susan Hetrick talking about families, Gary Freiman with some unique political opinions, and it’s my special honor to welcome Marie Howe. She’s a wonderful poet from New York. Welcome to the show.

Marie Howe: Thank you very much. It’s an honor to be here.

Kent: You have quite a record. You’ve gotten a Guggenheim Fellowship and a Nation Endowment of the Arts Fellowship. Tell me a little about your background.

Marie: Oh, gosh. I grew up in Rochester, New York, as one of nine children and I didn’t start writing poetry in any serious way until I was about 29 years old. I was teaching high school before that.

Kent: What did you teach in high school?

Marie: I loved reading but I had no idea you could be a living person and write poetry.

Kent: What did you teach?

Marie: I taught English to the kids in high school who could hardly make it to school.

Kent: Your work is stunning. You have a new book that is just coming out.

Marie: Yeah.

Kent: What’s the release day?

Marie: Actually it just officially came out about two week ago. I never quite notice. It’s called “The Kingdom of Ordinary Time.”

Kent: There’s some really beautiful poetry, especially striking to me in looking through. The very first poem in the book confronts where we are right now after 9/11. Would you mind reading that?

Marie: I would love to read it. This is completely ridiculous, but I realize I’m standing here with my phone and my book is across the room. I’m on a phone that can’t reach, so I’m just going to reach over here.

Kent: I’ll do a little filler time here.

Marie: Do a little and I’ll be right there.

Kent: In 1987, she put out “The Good Thief.” In 1995, “In The Company of My Solitude: American Writings from the AIDS Pandemic.” In 1998, “What the Living Do.” Her new book is called “The Kingdom of Ordinary Time.”

Marie: And here I am.

Kent: OK.

Marie: Thank you so much.

Kent: Yeah.

Marie: I want to say something about Dr. King. I’m so moved to hear this information and to know this, and to be talking with you on the very day when he was killed, and to think of him as I’m about to read this. Would that he were here, and thank goodness Barack Obama is.It’s called “Prologue.” “Ordinary Time,” just for you listeners, I originally came to this term when I was growing up. The liturgical calendar, there was always this thing, we always stand there with the missals and there’s a period of time that’s called Ordinary Time, which is the period of time between the High Holy seasons. Not the Christmas season, not the Pentecost season, not Lenten season. It’s pretty much the rest of the year where nothing apparently miraculous happens.”Prologue.The rules, once again applied.One loaf equaled one loaf. One fish equaled one fish.The so-called kings were dead.And the woman who had been healed grew tired of telling her story,And sometimes asked her daughter to tell it.People generally worshiped where their parents had worshiped,And the men who’d hijacked the airplane prayed where the dead pilots had been sitting, and the passengers prayed from their seats–So many songs went up and out and into the thinning air.People, listening and watching, nodded and wept,And, leaving the theater, one turned to the other and said,What do you want to do now?And the other one said, I don’t know. What do you want to do?It was the Coming of Ordinary Time. First Sunday, second Sunday.And then (for who knows how long) it was here.”

Kent: What a stunning poem.

Marie: Thank you. That was so strange because the so-called kings were dead, right? I wasn’t even thinking of Martin Luther King, but of course he was one.

Kent: Of course it matches wonderfully. You talk so much about politics in your work. How does politics mix with this Ordinary Time and everyday life patterns?

Marie: It’s a time right now, as you know, as we all know, when holy wars are raging and there are people who, including our administration, are willing to kill for what they believe. There are people who are willing to die and blow themselves up for what they believe, and there are so many of use who don’t know what we believe.It’s such a strange time to be alive, especially given the last five years. I really hope that things will change with a new administration because of the way things have polarized so terribly. But also, there’s the sense of Ordinary Time where it seems as if the sacredness of any religion, as acted out in the war and the war zones, is being overshadowed by a kind of dogma, and the truly miraculous of course still keeps happening. [laughs] But I think in this country in particular it’s such an important and crucial moment in our history, given all the rights we’ve lost and the direction in which the empire is going to move next.

Kent: You’re a teacher. You teach in New York City. You said you taught English at a high school?

Marie: Yeah, that was a long time ago. That was almost 30 years ago now. I’ve been teaching in college and universities since then.

Kent: I’m curious about what the difference is from when you first began teaching to when you teach poetry now. What’s the difference for you?

Marie: Oh, gosh. There’s a lot to say. When I first started writing in 1980, people were just beginning to write from the margins, if you will. When I was in graduate school, we were taught maybe two or three women writers, and I don’t think any writers of color, and within the last 28 years.And really, it was beginning right then. Everybody has come into the writing world. Women, of course, people of color, people with different sexual identities, people from different countries, out loud, on the page, wrapped. Everything just poured into the world of what we used to call poetry. It’s really, really thrilling that so many people are writing now and many more people, I think, are reading poems that are written and spoken by lots of different kinds of voices.

Kent: I would love to listen to another poem. I’m going to put you on the spot here. Do you have another favorite in the book?

Marie: Sure, let me see. It’s funny, Jesus shows up in this book a lot. I’m not a practicing Christian but I grew up with those stories, and I just love the guy. There’s a little poem here called “The Star Market” that I’d love to read. A lot of what is throughout this book is that Jesus said “the kingdom of heaven is within you,” and I’ve been thinking about that for a long time.What does that mean, the kingdom of heaven is within each of us? So there’s a couple of questions in that case. I’ve been thinking about the problems in the world’s politics, and if the kingdom of heaven is within us, who governs there? Really? How do we govern ourselves? That’s another poem called “Government,” but maybe I’ll just read this little poem called “The Star Market.”"The people Jesus loved were shopping at The Star Market yesterday.An old lead-colored man standing next to me at the checkout.Breathed so heavily I had to step back a few steps.Even after his bags were packed he still stood,Breathing hard and hawking into his hand.The feeble, the lame, I could hardly look at them,Shuffling through the aisles, they smelled of decay,As if The Star Market had declared a day off for the able-bodied,And I had wandered in with the rest of them, sour milk, bad meat, looking for cereal and spring water.Jesus must have been a saint, I said to myself,Looking for my lost car in the parking lot later,Stumbling among the people.Who would have been lowered into rooms by ropes,Who would have crept out of caves,Or crawled from the corners of public baths.On their hands and knees begging for mercy.If I touch only the hem of his garment,One woman thought, could I bear the look on his face.When he wheels around?”

Kent: It’s fascinating how you can weave this biblical narrative into poetry. When did you start thinking about doing that?

Marie: I didn’t really think about. The stories are really real to me. I love how my daughter sits in the bathtub and says, “Tell me another story about Moses!” [laughs] It’s her fairy tale. I just love these stories, the Old Testament and the New Testament. So it’s not something I consciously do, it’s just something I do as I walk around.

Kent: Tell us about your daughter.

Marie: My daughter is adopted from China. To anybody who’s listening, I went to China, I began the adoption process when I was 50 years old. I had just gotten divorced. So if there’s any woman who’s thinking, “Oh, I’m just too old to go and adopt a kid, I say go do it.I went to China when I was 52, came home with a three-year-old who is just an extraordinary person. I can’t tell you. She’s amazing. She’s like a joyful Buddha. It just changed my life. Her name’s Anon. She’s a wonderful person. She just turned eight. So there’s that. I’m exhausted and happy.

Kent: And how does looking at her life, when she’s going to be a grown-up, how do you think this country and the world will change between now and then?

Marie: Oh, good lord, don’t we all wonder this? I don’t know if this is opinion radio, but I really do hope Obama becomes president. I feel like we have to realize that we’re a failing empire, and that China and these other countries are economically so much stronger. We have to put down our guns and begin to live as one world.It’s so strange, the Internet already lives like this. It’s almost like the world’s consciousness. The Internet already knows that we’re one world. We have to get politicians to understand that. We have to get them to begin to talk with each other and mediate our difference because this old “shoot ‘em up” thing is over.

Kent: [laughs] We’ll all work towards that. Can your read us one more poem from your book?

Marie: Sure. Another one of the major characters in this book is Mary, who is the Mother of Jesus. It’s not the Virgin Mary and not Mary as she’s been depicted, but Mary as the human being. I think I’ll just end with this little poem of Mary’s at the very end of the book. It partly comes from a sense of being exhausted as a new mother at my age with a little kid, not having any time to write.It’s also, of course, the illuminations that come with that presence in your life. It’s called “Mary, A Reprise” and it’s at the very end. It refers to all the paintings of Mary. She’s always sitting there in the Italian and Dutch paintings with a book in her hand and the book is half-closed. I’ve always been very interested in that.”What is that book, we always see, in the paintings? In her lap?Her finger keeping the place of who she was when she looked up.When I look up, my mother is dead,And my own daughter is calling from the bathtub.’Mom, come in and watch me. Come in here right now.’No Going Back might be the name of that angel.’No more reverie. Let this be done to me,’ Mary finally said.And that was the last time, for a long time,That she spoke about the past.”

Kent: What a wonderful poem. That’s from “The Kingdom of Ordinary Time,” just released by Norton, and Marie Howe’s been our guest. It’s been a real pleasure. You’re actually headlining the White Pine Festival in Stillwater, Minnesota, this summer.

Marie: Yeah, I am.

Kent: My mother’s going to be a solo poet with you, Cynthia Gustavson.

Marie: I am so delighted to hear this. And may I tell you, sir, it’s been a great joy talking with you today.

Kent: It has been a pleasure. Have a wonderful day. My next guest is going to be Gary Freiman. He certainly has a different opinion about politics, and we’ll chat with him. Thank you so much for being on the show, Marie Howe.

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